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Modern readers hearing about Forge critiques often don't seem to realize that at least some of the writers were strongly focused on Vampire 1st Edition, where:

The introduction says the object of play is to collaboratively create a story about humanity and monstrosity.

The rules tell you that characters are functionally superheroes with fangs.

The Storyteller is urged to use devices like foreshadowing in a way that assumes a railroad (not collaborative).

...It's mostly NOT about D&D.

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Like, man, I have been a critic of that stuff since forever, but at this point, a lot of the context has just fucking *vaporized,* rendering many modern arguments about it senseless.

@LeviKornelsen lmao i'm imagining someone reading Sorcerer without that context and being like "uhh what is this author so ornery about?"

@tabletophotdish - I haven't seen that specific case yet, but I wouldn't be even a little surprised to; just *sigh.*

@LeviKornelsen honestly it was kind of me; i bought sorcerer off the shelf which is what led me to the Forge, not the other way around. i remember reading the book in The Source and being like "man this guy is angry about something... sounds like white wolf" and then i bought it lmao

@tabletophotdish @LeviKornelsen I mean, we did. @drcpunk got into the forge heavily early on (I mean, it was clearly where the New Interesting Stuff was happening) but while we tried Vampire briefly it clearly wasn't that interesting and we shifted to using OtE as our System of Choice for like a decade. So figuring out that a lot of the hardline forge stuff was specifically anti-WoD wasn't easy.

@mneme @tabletophotdish @LeviKornelsen Oh yes. I remember someone explaining exactly what happened when his GM did what the rules suggested, doing a one-on-one prologue session, four hours of the GM telling him a story about his character plus one die roll, and my thought balloon read: Oh dear -- you actually tried to do what the book said? This... explains a lot.

@mneme @tabletophotdish @LeviKornelsen And at that point, I understood more about the Forge because I got an invitation because I mentioned this interesting thing I did in my home game (I forget exactly what), so didn't quite get the full context for a while.

@drcpunk @tabletophotdish @LeviKornelsen ... Yeah. After one brief Vampire session right after the game came out, our primary WoD activity was occasionally reading the books and complaining about ham-handed, hubristic monologues (particularly intros).

@mneme @tabletophotdish @LeviKornelsen I mean, I read a lot of the books, and mostly complained about the on-rails-in-the-deprive-players-of-agency-sense. That one particular intro was Special. Again, while 2nd edition still had these problems, it was already an improvement on 1st.

@mneme @tabletophotdish @LeviKornelsen I did use a lot of things from 1st ed Vampire books, particularly 1st ed Chicago by Night, which is probably one of my favorite sourcebooks despite its flaws. But yeah, it was bits, carefully chosen, and inserted into a Frankensteinian homebrew system and background. (I started running in 1991, and Over the Edge wasn't out yet. I didn't switch to it until the 2nd campaign I ran.)

@LeviKornelsen yeah. D&D was pretty much the game. It claimed to be on the cover. I bounced off of vampire really hard a couple of times because a it wasn't and b teenager me had a very low tolerance for edge Lord stuff

@LeviKornelsen oh yeah. When I read a lot of Ron Edwards articles a few years ago, not to mention Sorcerer, I was struck by how obsessed with VtM and White Wolf he was.

@jamesgraham @LeviKornelsen

The irony then that a lot of critics of the Forge ALSO hated White Wolf ... for the same reasons even.

One could argue this was a dispute of just, seeing the Forge trying to "do right" something said critics didn't think anyone should do at all, but ... I suspect that is ascribing more intellectual consistency than was ever demonstrated.

@jamesgraham @LeviKornelsen Ron Edwards and RPGPundit both sounded like they lost their gaming groups to folks who ran Vampire TM. The level of venom that they spit at the game really struck me as being both petty and fueled by jealousy.

@LeviKornelsen I was one of those who never ran VtM as superheroes with fangs. So a lot of their hate made me shake my head and walk away. So the Forge was never really a place that influenced me at all. I tried but it all just bounced off because of the venom everything was laced with.

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